if you had it to do over again ....

[brownie]

would you want to work for a different company? which airline would you want to work for?

see ya
Brownie

[727]

Defenitely BA! But maybe my dreams come true soon, because I am working for KLM now!! http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/images/icons/grin.gif

[traveler]

Delta

[53winky]

Continental Airlines...they have won the J.D.Powerw Award for the past several years, and also listed in the top Fortune 500 for the best company to work for since the demise of Lorenzo from the company...they have pulled themselves out from bankruptcy unlike any other airline...

[NWAINSFO]

I would love to work for British Airways but as an American, I am assuming I am unable to be a flight attendant at BA. I would love to work for a major airline in Europe but I only speak English (and not very well ha-ha-ha).
I guess I will settle for Northwest Airlines.
I love my job and have a great time. I get some interaction with Europeans visiting San Francisco. I love a man with an accent (especially British and Dutch). ((maybe with the Dutch accent idea---it's more likely the looks of Dutch men http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif ))

[suthernbelle]

http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/images/icons/confused.gif I would again work for my present airline. I know other fas with other airlines and each airline has its own individual positive and negative points. Hey, and why go through the Hell of training and clawing your way up the seniority ladder again?

[fiesta31]

Fly for Alitalia, then you'll realize....

[traveler]

... or maybe United.
Do we get to keep the knowledge we have now ?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Living in Europe, I think I would love working for either BA, or Air France. (preferably AF, because I miss home so much!...sniff!....) no seriously, I gave up flying , I prefer working on the ground, and you, folks ?

[BlackBird]

There's only one answer: fly for Thai - and you really notice the difference ...

[JetHostieDownUnder]

I love flying for an Australian airline, but it would be fun to a couple of years for a US airline like Continental, American or Delta.

[blacksheep]

I would love to work for BA. But not living in the UK it is hard to have notice when they recruit. They only accept CV's when advertised on newspapers, and doing longhaul doesn't help checking. The kept calling recruitment for one year then I stopped.
Fiesta 31 you are right, Alitalia would be the last choice!

[fiesta31]

Poor me,blacksheep!

[GalleyWench]

If I had to do it over again....oh wait I did. First PanAm, now UAL. Much larger paycheck with UAL!! And no 9 year B scale!!

[brownie]

Wow thanks for all the input!
BA seems to be the most popular choice. Because I am an "ugly American" BA is not an option for me. since my last posting though I have Aplied and jumped though all of the UAL hoops. I am now just study the books they shipped to me and wait to attend training.

Only 1 UAL response! Should I be worried http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

see ya
brownie

[blacksheep]

Fiesta 31!
Did you consider moving to another airline?
If you are under 32 you could try AF, and if you are very lucky you could try BA.
Are you on a permanent contract?
Tell us your point of view about Alitalia (=Always Late In Takoff Always Late In Arrival) :-)

[fiesta31]

I have a permanent contract,that's why I'm not considering changing airline,situation in Italy is quite bad with airlines and Alitalia is still a paradise compared to the other italian carriers.It could be a wonderful airline but it is getting always worse.Well'see....

[blacksheep]

Fiesta 31
why is it getting worse?
And what is the situation of the other Italian airlines? Do you have firsthand news?
I read in the newspapers that most of the airlines in Italy are getting partnerships with other Europewan carriers.

[fiesta31]

Almost 4 years ago Alitalia started a low cost airline Alitalia Team.All young FA were hired on a permanent contract,we started with a few aircrafts and ended up having almost the whole fleet of Alitalia exept the 747.WE had quite fun at the beginning,but we used to fly 95 hours at least which became quite hard after a while.In March we had a fusion with old Alitalia.everything became Alitalia Team as it is now.We had great expectations.Too bad!we are flying less,we have a better contract,but money is almost 30%less and everything is based on seniority.That means for us young FA doing the worst flights.I wonder how it is in other airlines...

[fiesta31]

Alitalia is still seeking for a new partnership.As far as I know we'll get Swissair as partner.Volare Airlines and air europe Italy are allready under the control of Swissair.Air One just signed a codesharing agreement with Lufthansa,Gandalf air with Air France

[blacksheep]

Thanks Fiesta 31 for the explanation. Seems more or less that Italian skyes will be wearing the cross pretty soon.

Being a junior sucks in any airline, so just hold on, one day you'll be senior too!

[traveler]

Hé, brownie.
No worries, they pay better than most.

[Welcome_Aboard]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana ">quote:<HR>Originally posted by blacksheep:
….Are you on a permanent contract?…..


Originally posted by fiesta31:
…..I have a permanent contract,that's why I'm not considering changing airline…..

and

…. All young FA were hired on a permanent contract…..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This may sound very silly, but…..
What do you mean by “permanent contract” and why would that make a F/A decide to not consider changing airlines? http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/images/icons/confused.gif

[fiesta31]

Hi Welcome abroad,maybe blacksheep asked my about permanent contract because I think he knows how the situation in Italy is,I know it is quite different in other airlines around the world.It took me almost 6 years to get a permanent contract,when you start working for an airline here you'll get time contract,6 months, 3 or also 1.After that,you stay at home not knowing if you'll work again,usually 3 months but sometimes it can turn out to be 1 year too.So you start applying with other airlines.In one year I used to change almost 3 airlines,moving to 3 different towns also for one month.Too sad.Quite stressful.

[Welcome_Aboard]

Fiesta31 and blacksheep,
Interesting…and amazing. You’re saying that you sign a contract with an Italian airline for a specific amount of time and then you are out of work. Is this just in Italy, or do other countries have similar “contract” work?

After your contract is over and you are out of work, do you have to interview again and again with the same airline, or do they get in touch with you if they need more F/As?

What is the process you have to go through to get a ”permanent” contract? Who decides?

Do the airlines in Italy have F/A unions and union contracts that define your work rules and pay?…maximum time on duty, rest breaks on layovers and between trips, salary, expense money, etc. (Fiesta31 mentioned something about a “better contract” in another post. Is this a union contract?)

Blacksheep mentioned a F/A license and the EEC (What is the EEC?). Once you have that license can you start working for any Italian airline immediately, or do you have to go through weeks of extra training at each airline you work for? Is that license required to work as a F/A in Italy?

In the USA each airline has its own training program for F/As…usually 5-7 weeks. If you are accepted at an airline, go through their training, and then decide to apply to another airline, you still have to go through the other airline’s training program. There is no license involved.

Blacksheep also mentioned an age limit. Is that just for training, or is there also an age limit for the job itself?…do you have to stop flying when you reach the age of 30?

My message sounds like I’m rambling, but what both of you are describing is such a different concept to what we’re use to in the USA…I’m not even sure of what questions to ask, or how to ask them, so that I will understand.

Thank you for the information you both have already given, and thanks for being patient.

[blacksheep]

Welcome Aboard
The EEC is the European Community. In Italy (France has similar rules) you have to attend a basic F/A training of the Airline, after which you have to fly at least 100 hours (60 in France)before being allowed to the Italian CAA exam in order to obtain the licence. The exam consists in: SEP, First Aid, English language. Needless to say that usually some of the airlines (not Alitalia) take good advantage of the fact that they pay the trainees breadcrumbs to keep them in that position for as long as 8/9 months before the CAA exam. A trainee is not legally a F/A, but an extra crew who is not in charge of the SEP. If you move to another airline you will have to attend the airline's own training (3 to 5 weeeks)including commercial and SEP but not again undergo the exam. You only need to be line-trained for a flight if it expires (if you didn't fly the sufficient amount of hours in a period of three months).
The age limit is not for the job itself, it is bare discrimination. Age limit in Alitalia is 32 on my knowledge if it didn't change lately, as well as Air France (35 in AF if you have previous experience). Try to get a job in another airline after 30. I heard of an Italian airline who has an age limit of 27. This doesn't mean you have to resign after 30. It works just for the first entry.
In Italy there are unions, but it is something completely different of what you are used to in the US. There is basically no general contract for F/A. Unions in any airline discuss the contract for their F/A. But anyway, with the exception of Alitalia (correct me Fiesta 31 if I'm wrong) they are hugely ignored, because most of the workforce is on term contract. So they just have to keep quiet, or won't be hireds again. That means that they can hire you with contracts of 2,3 4 etc months forever. As Fiesta 31 said, for 6, 7, 8 years. It is a cunning mean to get rid of you after a while to cut down seniority, that costs the airline; and remember that a senior F/A is usually a WISE F/A (unions, etc). Even if I would dare say the unions are pretty USELESS.
The Airline decides who, when and for how long is going to be hired.
In France the situation with the Unions is much better, and usually have a very attentive look on the violations.

Hope I've been exhaustive enough, and hopefully Fiesta 31 will be able to add more.

[fiesta31]

Welcome aboard I know it may sound strange to you guys in the US but that's the way it is here.It is quite terrible,but blacksheep gave a wonderful description.By the way,Blacksheep did you work in a italian airline?You know so much.First step to be A FA is to get a 2 month training in classroom.After that in order to get your license you have to do at least 100 hours of flying as trainee.After that the airline will book for you the exam at the Ministry of Transport.Once you get your license you are free to move to other italian airlines.I said at least 100 hours because I got my license through an airline that made me fly 7 months,more than 600 hours before getting my license.Pay check was around 500 Us dollars inclusive everything,no time and service limit,each day you got sick -25 dollars each day.

[blacksheep]

Fiesta 31
I did work for an Italian airline (I could't have done the first remark about AZ, remember?) and still have lots of F/A and pilot friends there.

[blacksheep]

And consider that during the time you are on a term contract you have no rights. Can't call sick (do it at your own risks), can't express opinions, can't refuse to fly in off days/excess hours and on all kind of illegal situations...and can't buy anything (house, car) except paying cash if you don't have a fixed salary because no bank will give you a mortgage loan.
And then it is not so easy to relocate once you are , your choice or theirs, out of a company. All Companies want to train their F/A to the F/A licence (there is one like the pilots have) because they get money from the EEC to train people (not to give them a job! just to train them ! As if there were airlines at every corner looking for F/A)). Consequence: Every company is training like hell and there is not enough work for everybody. They concentrate on the numbers instead of the professionality.
And then, when you are over 30, forget to find any kind of job as a F/A in Italy, because they get rewards if they train people up to 28, max 30.
Am I right Fiesta31? Anything that could be added?

[Welcome_Aboard]

I had no idea that F/As in Italy went through what both of you have described. I guess F/As in the USA just take for granted that working conditions for F/As in other countries are at least similar to our own.

Most airlines in the USA will hire people over 30 to be F/As. In fact, it’s common now to see new hire F/As in their 40s, 50s, and in some cases, 60s. I have worked with new hires that are starting second careers as F/As…they are retired police officers, retired military, etc.

What would make so many young people want to become F/As in your country, and continue to try to stay F/As, if there are so few benefits? Are there any changes coming in the future?

Do other countries and airlines require F/As to be licensed?

fiesta31…I wish you the best of luck.

[blacksheep]

Of course there are changes coming in the future. Too bad it is for worse. Globalization is taking its toll. Conservative party is gaining strenght, the other way around of FA jobs.

If you get to be permanent in a company, and hopefully purser, life is not so bad, especially if it is a big company like Alitalia. Even if it is not what it used to be, as Fiesta 31 pointed out. He could be more specific on the topic, I hope he'll answer.
There are few other big companies in Italy.
The first is AIR EUROPE, but since Swissair took over with a share, things are going down the drain and they are talking about sacking people. They want to operate the same flights with a looooow cost airline (Swissair owned of course) through which they achieved to own AE completely (of course the same FA re-hired with a much worse contract).
AIR ONE looses money since day one (6 years ago) and their FA's conditions are lower than african airlines (ex they have to pay the half of the company airport parking fee!)
LAUDA ITALY owns only 2 aircrafts (B767) and following the losses of Lauda Austria, the latter is seriously thinking of closing it down.
EUROFLY is very likely to be taken up by Alitalia (which it belongs)
France requires FA licence.
Hope I didn't depress too much you guys. It would be nice to know aboout your contracts and conditions too.

[travel2much]

I used to work for Continental, and all I can say is I am much happier at UAL.

[Grondmeneertje]

Hey y'all!
Indeed interesting to see this conversation. I'm working for KLM in the Netherlands, so fiesta and me are ex-fiancees http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/images/icons/tongue.gif
But about the contracts. Here in the Netherlands it's about the same with the temporary contracts. First of all you get a one season (summer of course = holiday) up to 1 year contract. After that the company can decide to give you a contract directly following the first contract. If they do that and the second is a temporary as well, then the third contract directly following the second MUST be a permanent contract. This is all in the employmentlaw, which is very protecting for the employees. Of course they can also say goodbye to you for the winter season and ask you again if you would like to work for them again in summer. Then the above rule is not valid anymore. So these seasonal contracts are very much used by charter airlines to the Mediterranean, Caribbean etc. However there is no such thing as a license or so. As far as I know (actually I'm groundstaff) if you start to work for another airline, you have to do these 'flightsafety courses' and all the other crab again.
At the moment the working market is very tense in The Netherlands. Airlines as well as other companies can hardly get any people for the vacant jobs, they are even cancelling flights due shortage of cabincrew. So if one of you would like to work (even if it's for one year) in the Netherlands, this is your chance! I even know that KLM offers you a permanent contract the very moment you enter the course! The only thing, this is also regulated by law, is that you have a two months trial, but after that it's very difficult for them to get rid of you! http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/images/icons/cool.gif

[blacksheep]

Too bad you have to be dutch speaker to apply in KLM!

[laura@ual]

Dear Brownie,
I worked for TWA for 6 years then I went to United.I'm in my 10th year. I like United alot.
Free passes, great route structure, lots of bases, decent money.

[suthernbelle]

As our wise friend Welcome Aboard wrote, "Most airlines in the USA will hire people over 30 to be F/As. In fact, it’s common now to see new hire F/As in their 40s, 50s, and in some cases, 60s. I have worked with new hires that are starting second careers as F/As…they are retired police officers, retired military, etc."

I was 36 years old when I started with the airline. Previously, I worked in the public relations/media relations realm for 12 years. A shakeup at the government entity where I was employed left me without a job and I took about two years off dabbling in this and that, watching the O.J. Simpson trial, mopping the floor 18 times a day, driving everyone crazy, etc. I then decided to do something that I always wanted to do - which was fly.

When I went to training, I felt like everyone's mother. I was surrounded by people who were barely out of high school. My roommate was 57 years old.

I think that airlines are hiring "older" people due to their workplace experience, reliability, etc. That is not to say that the "older" people are always reliable. I know a few older, relatively "new" FAs who could not find their rear end with a road map and a search warrant.

Oh well, that's my mouthing off piece for this evening. Ya'll take care. Fly safe.

S'Belle

[This message has been edited by suthernbelle (edited November 01, 2000).]